Hi Dean,
You may find the issue is still the #3 switch, because even though it works ok, the transfer time between the contacts may be too long.
For the search unit removal. Remove the power, then the comb edge connector from the search unit. Now remove the 3 large bolts in each corner of the search unit. Leave the last one in and steady it as you pull forwards. It will come off easily. Now you will see the stopping switch assembly. Only one of the switches on here is the stopping switch. Remove the circlip and pull forward. It will come off. Check the switches on the bench and check their connectivity on the wiper circuit on the rear. Clean the wiper tracks and clean the wiper contacts (these are still in the jukebox). Check dry joints where the wires from the stop switch is attached to the wiper track.
When done set the carousel so that U0 (I think it's U0 but will clarify later) is at the top. Now slide the stopping switch assembly back on and line up the words 200 to the 3 o'clock position where there is a bit of a ledge in the mounting bracket. Also make sure you wind the record playing annunciator round to show U0 also).
Re fit search unit and bolt up. Don't mess with anything on that unit as it has nothing to do with your problem. Connect the comb edge connector and select a record. Try all selections like A1,B2,C3,D4 so you have covered all letters and numbers. If the search unit spins forever on a certain letter or number then it's a poor connection on that comb contact.
Hope that helps to get you going ,
Nigel, uk
On 12 Mar 2024 at 07:52, Dean Carriveau via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
Nygel, Tony, and John,
Update, I've checked the CS3 Micro-switch as I manually turned the cam with an Allen wrench. Both the NC and NO terminals showed the internal contacts top open and close properly with my ohm meter at it's lowest setting. Very little or no resistance. The control relay "R" operates and released correctly when I turn the cam manually to start the transfer motor and it will load and play a record, then after playing will return the record to the carousel. so I believe the "R" control relay winding is okay. I would like to check the stopping micro-switch but don't have easy access to it with the search unit still in the machine. I'm a little apprehensive about removing the search unit to bench test the micro-switch and then throwing sequencing out of adjustment. Any tips for how I can accomplish that? Thanks for riding along with me on this misadventure. Dean
On Sunday, March 10, 2024 at 01:37:19 PM PDT, Dean Carriveau d.carriveau@att.net wrote:
Will do, NIgel. and thanks. I want to get this fixed once and for all. Dean
On Sunday, March 10, 2024 at 10:26:41 AM PDT, Nigel Pugh pughn@npsyssoft.force9.co.uk wrote:
Hi Dean,Keep us updated. You can put a hex key into the cam pivot and turn the mechanism power off to check the positions of the cam microswitches when you reassemble them. Have fun. RegardsNigel
On 10 Mar 2024 at 15:43, Dean Carriveau d.carriveau@att.net wrote:
Tony, Nigel, John, Thank you for your detailed responses You've given me some great advice. I haven't had the mechanism out of this machine for twenty or more years so it's about time I get it out and check those micro-switches as described. Hopefully I'll find the problem this week and let you know what it was. I really appreciate you taking the time to research and help. Dean
On Sunday, March 10, 2024 at 01:33:20 AM PST, Nigel Pugh via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
Ok I have checked the manual and it is cam switch #3 switching too slowly. Interestingly it is not mentioned in the troubleshooting for the previous years' JAL model, so I reckon it must have been a route fault reported.
My advice with the microswitches is replace it with a quality one. Not a Chinese one. The tolerance between the NO and NC on this switch is crucial. I actually got in the habit of taking the original Cherry ones apart and cleaning them up, and a really slight bending of one of the contacts internally to reduce the gap and make it switch faster.
What you may find is, you turn your jukebox on today and it works perfectly. Don't ask me why. But it will come back at some time.
Nigel, UK
-----Original Message----- From: Nigel Pugh via Jukebox-list [mailto:jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com] Sent: 10 March 2024 03:43 To: John Robertson via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com; John Robertson jrr@flippers.com Cc: Nigel Pugh pughn@npsyssoft.force9.co.uk Subject: [Jukebox-list] Re: AMI JBM200 Tropicana question
This is the answer here.
Check the microswitch I mentioned in my previous email which is on the left hand cam assembly by the side of the rear of the tonearm. It requires removal of the mechanism. No others on that cam assembly will cause this problem.
Check also the stopping switch itself on the rotating plate behind the search unit. There are 2 micros on there, one is the stopping switch the other is the a/b side switch.
Check the wipers at the rear of this unit (5) and clean the tracks with deoxit.
Check the detent solenoid microswitch right at the bottom middle of the mechanism in the middle of the frame by the sprag assembly.
Check the Jones plug and nylon plug connections to the R relay. I said in my other email where it is.
Your problem will likely be the cam switch micro.
Bear in mind this was a rubbish design and although the mechanics of that mechanism were all identical up to 1976, the electronics concerning this issue were fiddled with and changed almost in a yearly basis, and improved upon. The problem is that the microswitch wears and/or the cam assembly gets a little sloppy, and it doesn't switch fast enough, and before it's switched and stopped the carousel motor and engaged the transfer motor, the pin has hopped.
R relay is the symptom and not the problem. R transfers 28vac from the carousel motor to the transfer motor.
I've spent 40 years owning a Tropicana and working on the 1100 mech and know exactly all the pinch points in this circuit. R also has a cap/resistor time delay on it.
Nigel, uk
On 10 Mar 2024 at 03:30, John Robertson via Jukebox-list
jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
On 2024/03/09 7:07 p.m., Tony Miklos via Jukebox-list wrote:
I forget which, but one of those micro switches is in the circuit for both A & B sides. A bad micro switch is most likely the problem. I've seen it many times.
Tony
I completely agree with Tony, One of the first things I teach my apprentices (after the electrical safety bit) is to go for the easy fixes - test EVERY SINGLE microswitch with a continuity tester and watch for bouncing readings while tripping and afterwards. Microswitches must trip cleanly and stay tripped. No noise, just a clean closure as the switch is pushed from just activate until the button bottoms out on the body of the switch.
Any noise? Replace, retest, go on to next switch.
This fixes so many issues that the machine is often ready to go out once all the switches are dealt with.
Contacts are the biggest headache in machines.
John :-#)#
On 3/9/2024 8:18 PM, Dean Carriveau via Jukebox-list wrote:
That was be my first thought as well but it jumps both inner and outer pin tracks and I cannot locate the "R" relay that should be energized. I don't believe both micro-switches failed at the same time.
Dean
On Saturday, March 9, 2024 at 04:07:59 PM PST, Dean Carriveau via Jukebox-listjukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote: Hi all, My JBM200 Tropicana has gone from intermittently failing readout to now solid failure to readout and start the transfer circuit. Read in circuity is fine. The selected pin sets properly on the pin assembly. When the magazine motor starts and moves the magazine and stopping switch gear, the stopping switch finds the selected pin but jumps right over it without stopping and starting the transfer cycle. My manual shows that Control Relay R operates along with the shift solenoid through the stop switch when a pin is encountered. My question is: Where in the heck is control relay R? I've found R1, R2, and R5 but cannot find R. in the machine or the
manual.
Thanks, Dean
-- John's Jukes Ltd. 7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 Call (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"
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Hi Nigel, You are so right. micro-switch C3 seems to be the main culprit. When the mechanism cam is in the idle/rest position the C3 switch should be operated via the raised cam lobe. The normally closed switch should be open and the normally open switch closed. With the leads off, the normally open switch is intermittent by my analog meter reading. After operating the cam manually back and forth a few times C3 NO showed closed in the idle cam position and the machine began to operate normally. The magazine detent switch is also noisy and intermittent and seems to be causing an occasional jump by the magazine once the transfer has begun and the wrong record selection results. I have ordered this switch but it has not yet arrived. I'm a little nervous about replacing the cam switch C3 as it seems to be one of the most difficult to get to. I'll give you a final update once I've received the switches and have them installed. Thanks again for pointing me in the right direction. This thing has been dogging me for ages. Dean
On Tuesday, March 12, 2024 at 02:04:59 AM PDT, Nigel Pugh pughn@npsyssoft.force9.co.uk wrote:
Hi Dean,You may find the issue is still the #3 switch, because even though it works ok, the transfer time between the contacts may be too long. For the search unit removal Remove the power, then the comb edge connector from the search unit. Now remove the 3 large bolts in each corner of the search unit. Leave the last one in and steady it as you pull forwards. It will come off easily. Now you will see the stopping switch assembly. Only one of the switches on here is the stopping switch. Remove the circlip and pull forward. It will come off. Check the switches on the bench and check their connectivity on the wiper circuit on the rear. Clean the wiper tracks and clean the wiper contacts (these are still in the jukebox). Check dry joints where the wires from the stop switch is attached to the wiper track. When done set the carousel so that U0 (I think it's U0 but will clarify later) is at the top. Now slide the stopping switch assembly back on and line up the words 200 to the 3 o'clock position where there is a bit of a ledge in the mounting bracket. Also make sure you wind the record playing annunciator round to show U0 also). Re fit search unit and bolt up. Don't mess with anything on that unit as it has nothing to do with your problem. Connect the comb edge connector and select a record. Try all selections like A1,B2,C3,D4 so you have covered all letters and numbers. If the search unit spins forever on a certain letter or number then it's a poor connection on that comb contact. Hope that helps to get you going ,Nigel, uk
On 12 Mar 2024 at 07:52, Dean Carriveau via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@listsnetlojix.com wrote:
Nygel, Tony, and John,
Update, I've checked the CS3 Micro-switch as I manually turned the cam with an Allen wrench. Both the NC and NO terminals showed the internal contacts top open and close properly with my ohm meter at it's lowest setting. Very little or no resistance. The control relay "R" operates and released correctly when I turn the cam manually to start the transfer motor and it will load and play a record, then after playing will return the record to the carousel. so I believe the "R" control relay winding is okay. I would like to check the stopping micro-switch but don't have easy access to it with the search unit still in the machine. I'm a little apprehensive about removing the search unit to bench test the micro-switch and then throwing sequencing out of adjustment. Any tips for how I can accomplish that? Thanks for riding along with me on this misadventure. Dean
On Sunday, March 10, 2024 at 01:37:19 PM PDT, Dean Carriveau d.carriveau@att.net wrote:
Will do, NIgel. and thanks. I want to get this fixed once and for all. Dean
On Sunday, March 10, 2024 at 10:26:41 AM PDT, Nigel Pugh pughn@npsyssoft.force9.co.uk wrote:
Hi Dean,Keep us updated. You can put a hex key into the cam pivot and turn the mechanism power off to check the positions of the cam microswitches when you reassemble them. Have fun. RegardsNigel
On 10 Mar 2024 at 15:43, Dean Carriveau d.carriveau@att.net wrote:
Tony, Nigel, John, Thank you for your detailed responses You've given me some great advice. I haven't had the mechanism out of this machine for twenty or more years so it's about time I get it out and check those micro-switches as described. Hopefully I'll find the problem this week and let you know what it was. I really appreciate you taking the time to research and help. Dean
On Sunday, March 10, 2024 at 01:33:20 AM PST, Nigel Pugh via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
Ok I have checked the manual and it is cam switch #3 switching too slowly. Interestingly it is not mentioned in the troubleshooting for the previous years' JAL model, so I reckon it must have been a route fault reported.
My advice with the microswitches is replace it with a quality one. Not a Chinese one. The tolerance between the NO and NC on this switch is crucial. I actually got in the habit of taking the original Cherry ones apart and cleaning them up, and a really slight bending of one of the contacts internally to reduce the gap and make it switch faster.
What you may find is, you turn your jukebox on today and it works perfectly. Don't ask me why. But it will come back at some time.
Nigel, UK
-----Original Message----- From: Nigel Pugh via Jukebox-list [mailto:jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com] Sent: 10 March 2024 03:43 To: John Robertson via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com; John Robertson jrr@flippers.com Cc: Nigel Pugh pughn@npsyssoft.force9.co.uk Subject: [Jukebox-list] Re: AMI JBM200 Tropicana question
This is the answer here.
Check the microswitch I mentioned in my previous email which is on the left hand cam assembly by the side of the rear of the tonearm. It requires removal of the mechanism. No others on that cam assembly will cause this problem.
Check also the stopping switch itself on the rotating plate behind the search unit. There are 2 micros on there, one is the stopping switch the other is the a/b side switch.
Check the wipers at the rear of this unit (5) and clean the tracks with deoxit.
Check the detent solenoid microswitch right at the bottom middle of the mechanism in the middle of the frame by the sprag assembly.
Check the Jones plug and nylon plug connections to the R relay. I said in my other email where it is.
Your problem will likely be the cam switch micro.
Bear in mind this was a rubbish design and although the mechanics of that mechanism were all identical up to 1976, the electronics concerning this issue were fiddled with and changed almost in a yearly basis, and improved upon. The problem is that the microswitch wears and/or the cam assembly gets a little sloppy, and it doesn't switch fast enough, and before it's switched and stopped the carousel motor and engaged the transfer motor, the pin has hopped.
R relay is the symptom and not the problem. R transfers 28vac from the carousel motor to the transfer motor.
I've spent 40 years owning a Tropicana and working on the 1100 mech and know exactly all the pinch points in this circuit. R also has a cap/resistor time delay on it.
Nigel, uk
On 10 Mar 2024 at 03:30, John Robertson via Jukebox-list
jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
On 2024/03/09 7:07 p.m., Tony Miklos via Jukebox-list wrote:
I forget which, but one of those micro switches is in the circuit for both A & B sides. A bad micro switch is most likely the problem I've seen it many times.
Tony
I completely agree with Tony, One of the first things I teach my apprentices (after the electrical safety bit) is to go for the easy fixes - test EVERY SINGLE microswitch with a continuity tester and watch for bouncing readings while tripping and afterwards. Microswitches must trip cleanly and stay tripped. No noise, just a clean closure as the switch is pushed from just activate until the button bottoms out on the body of the switch.
Any noise? Replace, retest, go on to next switch.
This fixes so many issues that the machine is often ready to go out once all the switches are dealt with.
Contacts are the biggest headache in machines.
John :-#)#
On 3/9/2024 8:18 PM, Dean Carriveau via Jukebox-list wrote:
That was be my first thought as well but it jumps both inner and outer pin tracks and I cannot locate the "R" relay that should be energized. I don't believe both micro-switches failed at the same time.
Dean
On Saturday, March 9, 2024 at 04:07:59 PM PST, Dean Carriveau via Jukebox-listjukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote: Hi all, My JBM200 Tropicana has gone from intermittently failing readout to now solid failure to readout and start the transfer circuit. Read in circuity is fine. The selected pin sets properly on the pin assembly. When the magazine motor starts and moves the magazine and stopping switch gear, the stopping switch finds the selected pin but jumps right over it without stopping and starting the transfer cycle. My manual shows that Control Relay R operates along with the shift solenoid through the stop switch when a pin is encountered. My question is: Where in the heck is control relay R? I've found R1, R2, and R5 but cannot find R. in the machine or the
manual.
Thanks, Dean
-- John's Jukes Ltd. 7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 Call (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"
Jukebox-list mailing list -- jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com To unsubscribe send an email to jukebox-list-leave@lists.netlojix.com %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s Searchable Archives: http://jukebox.markmail.org/
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