Is there any way to get more bass out of an amp when using a cartridge that is lacking in bass?
Tony
Hi Tony,
Is this for a magnetic cartridge or ceramic ?
Is it lacking in bass because it is a lower output cartridge than original, and you have to turn up the volume to get a decent sound, and the potentiometer has moved out of the loudness contour, so the sound is a bit thin?
Even naff repro styli in the genuine cartridges can produce poor bass.
Anyhow if this is a case then I do have a solution, i.e improving the bass by boosting the output volume of the cartridge to the amp/preamp.
If so, let me know and I'll type in the reply because I did this 2 years ago and found a great solution.
What is the jukebox and cartridge ?
I'm assuming all is wired correctly and if it's a Rowe that the cartridge wires are out of phase.
If you want a quick fix and it's a tube amp, pull the avc tube đ.
Nigel uk
On 31 May 2024 at 13:27, Tony Miklos via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
Is there any way to get more bass out of an amp when using a cartridge that is lacking in bass?
Tony
It is ceramic. I believe so anyway. I had bypassed a cobra oscillator and with a .05mfd cap tapped into the amp. It has plenty of volume.
I hate to admit what the cartridge it is, but it's for a Crossley record player and I don't even have a part number for it. I doesn't really sound bad at all and the customer was happy with it. Sadly it's already gone but I'm still interested in your bass boosting technique. I was going to mess with the resistors on the bass control but got detoured and didn't get around to it.
On 5/31/2024 9:12 AM, Nigel Pugh wrote:
Hi Tony, Is this for a magnetic cartridge or ceramic ? Is it lacking in bass because it is a lower output cartridge than original, and you have to turn up the volume to get a decent sound, and the potentiometer has moved out of the loudness contour, so the sound is a bit thin? Even naff repro styli in the genuine cartridges can produce poor bass. Anyhow if this is a case then I do have a solution, i.e improving the bass by boosting the output volume of the cartridge to the amp/preamp. If so, let me know and I'll type in the reply because I did this 2 years ago and found a great solution.
What is the jukebox and cartridge ? I'm assuming all is wired correctly and if it's a Rowe that the cartridge wires are out of phase.
If you want a quick fix and it's a tube amp, pull the avc tube đ.
Nigel uk
On 31 May 2024 at 13:27, Tony Miklos via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
Is there any way to get more bass out of an amp when using a cartridge that is lacking in bass?
Tony
Hi Tony,
Just on my way out and will reply to you this evening about the bass.
If it's the black bodied cartridge with a red stylus then that is the chuo denshi ceramic one. It actually is a really good sounding cartridge. About 25 years ago it was a good ceramic replacement in jukeboxes, I liked it much better than the other options at the time. However nowadays I think it's reputation had been sullied a bit because it's fitted into pretty much every cheapo suitcase record player. But non the less it is good. I have actually used it into a magnetic input as an experiment on tube preamps (Ami) and with no mods or resistors and it sounds great. Very pleasing. My only hesitation these days is that I see you can buy 4 styli on Temu for about 2 dollars, so that tells me something about the diamonds on the new ones.
Nigel, uk
On 2 Jun 2024 at 12:27, Tony Miklos via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
It is ceramic. I believe so anyway. I had bypassed a cobra oscillator and with a .05mfd cap tapped into the amp. It has plenty of volume.
I hate to admit what the cartridge it is, but it's for a Crossley record player and I don't even have a part number for it. I doesn't really sound bad at all and the customer was happy with it. Sadly it's already gone but I'm still interested in your bass boosting technique. I was going to mess with the resistors on the bass control but got detoured and didn't get around to it.
On 5/31/2024 9:12 AM, Nigel Pugh wrote:
Hi Tony, Is this for a magnetic cartridge or ceramic ? Is it lacking in bass because it is a lower output cartridge than original, and you have to turn up the volume to get a decent sound, and the potentiometer has moved out of the loudness contour, so the sound is a bit thin? Even naff repro styli in the genuine cartridges can produce poor bass. Anyhow if this is a case then I do have a solution, i.e improving the bass by boosting the output volume of the cartridge to the amp/preamp. If so, let me know and I'll type in the reply because I did this 2 years ago and found a great solution.
What is the jukebox and cartridge ? I'm assuming all is wired correctly and if it's a Rowe that the cartridge wires are out of phase.
If you want a quick fix and it's a tube amp, pull the avc tube đ.
Nigel uk
On 31 May 2024 at 13:27, Tony Miklos via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
Is there any way to get more bass out of an amp when using a cartridge that is lacking in bass?
Tony
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Yes, that's what it is. I thought it sounded pretty good but with it being associated with Crossely, well that sort of makes one think it's crap right off the bat.
On 6/2/2024 8:11 AM, Nigel Pugh wrote:
Hi Tony, Just on my way out and will reply to you this evening about the bass. If it's the black bodied cartridge with a red stylus then that is the chuo denshi ceramic one. It actually is a really good sounding cartridge. About 25 years ago it was a good ceramic replacement in jukeboxes, I liked it much better than the other options at the time. However nowadays I think it's reputation had been sullied a bit because it's fitted into pretty much every cheapo suitcase record player. But non the less it is good. I have actually used it into a magnetic input as an experiment on tube preamps (Ami) and with no mods or resistors and it sounds great. Very pleasing. My only hesitation these days is that I see you can buy 4 styli on Temu for about 2 dollars, so that tells me something about the diamonds on the new ones. Nigel, uk
On 2 Jun 2024 at 12:27, Tony Miklos via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
It is ceramic. I believe so anyway. I had bypassed a cobra oscillator and with a .05mfd cap tapped into the amp. It has plenty of volume.
I hate to admit what the cartridge it is, but it's for a Crossley record player and I don't even have a part number for it. I doesn't really sound bad at all and the customer was happy with it. Sadly it's already gone but I'm still interested in your bass boosting technique. I was going to mess with the resistors on the bass control but got detoured and didn't get around to it.
On 5/31/2024 9:12 AM, Nigel Pugh wrote:
Hi Tony, Is this for a magnetic cartridge or ceramic ? Is it lacking in bass because it is a lower output cartridge than original, and you have to turn up the volume to get a decent sound, and the potentiometer has moved out of the loudness contour, so the sound is a bit thin? Even naff repro styli in the genuine cartridges can produce poor bass. Anyhow if this is a case then I do have a solution, i.e improving the bass by boosting the output volume of the cartridge to the amp/preamp. If so, let me know and I'll type in the reply because I did this 2 years ago and found a great solution.
What is the jukebox and cartridge ? I'm assuming all is wired correctly and if it's a Rowe that the cartridge wires are out of phase.
If you want a quick fix and it's a tube amp, pull the avc tube đ.
Nigel uk
On 31 May 2024 at 13:27, Tony Miklos via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
Is there any way to get more bass out of an amp when using a cartridge that is lacking in bass?
Tony
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Hi Tony,
When you first posted, I wasn't sure if you were taking magnetic or ceramic.
Now I know it was ceramic, but will tell you my findings about increasing the bass - with magnetic.
I probably have 30 or so different magnetic cartridges and have experimented with them for years. I like a good amount of bass, and am unfulfilled when a jukebox doesn't sound like it should.
Over the years I have realised this. Although some cartridges are less bassy than others, most earlier jukeboxes that have magnetic cartridges, are expecting a high output cartridge of that era, circa 9/10 MV output. When you pic a substitute and it's output is half of that, and it has an aftermarket non genuine stylus, it's output level is much less. Therefore for the same level of volume you have to turn the volume up significantly more. That takes the preamp beyond the loudness contour and hence the bass boost is less. Even poor replacement styli on original cartridges can have this effect. On my Seeburg Sunstar I mentioned this to the late Ron over 25 years ago. He sent me 2 genuine Seeburg yellow styli and it was literally like doubling the volume and bass overnight!
Anyhow, back to your question. I was sick of the 9.5mv output Shure M77 cartridge in my Rowe Tropicana, but all other cartridges sounded thin and not nice. (Wired out of phase correctly).
I thought the preamp is designed to expect 9.5mv and isn't getting it. So I thought, how do I amplify the signal to the preamp ? I can't preamp the preamp, because two lots of RIAA compensation would really screw the sound up.
I then found a stereo mic preamp board on eBay from Greece. It took an input of up to 10mv and an output up to around 250mv.. trimmer pots on each channel. 12vdc. 47k load, so same as a mag cartridge.(Non RIAA). So I worked it in and set the pots to a suitable level, and fitted a new Audio Technica AT3600L cartridge. Super fantastic bass, loads of gain, and overall back to amazing, with a modern higher compliance cartridge playing at 2g. Conclusion is lack of bass most of the time is due to the output of the cartridge not suiting the preamp.
You can also mess with the cartridge loading capacitance in your jukebox preamp if you want to experiment a bit. That can affect the bass and treble too, as can strapping tiny cap values across the volume control pot. All dependent on the cartridge and jukebox in question of course.
On the odd occasion I have found that picking a random cartridge might suit amp A fantastically , and sound really naff when paired with amp B. The Stanton 500s I've found are particularly fussy and can either sound fantastic or too much mid range depending on what they are paired up to.
It's always a bit of try it and see what's best, but the little mic preamp board I have found absolutely perfect for my needs - well, on my Tropicana anyway.
A good ceramic was sonotone 9tahc, but most are dead now due to hard rubber. You can even play those into a magnetic input and they sound fantastic. But sadly no more. Even if you get one to work, the chances are it'll chew your records because the rubber compliance is now so stiff.
During experimenting on hifi and my broadcast turntables, I find that ortofon cartridges seem less bassy than Shure and Stanton. More clarity but I want a jukebox to sound like a jukebox and not like a hifi cd player.
Regards
Nigel, uk
On 2 Jun 2024 at 13:12, Nigel Pugh via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
Hi Tony,
Just on my way out and will reply to you this evening about the bass.
If it's the black bodied cartridge with a red stylus then that is the chuo denshi ceramic one. It actually is a really good sounding cartridge. About 25 years ago it was a good ceramic replacement in jukeboxes, I liked it much better than the other options at the time. However nowadays I think it's reputation had been sullied a bit because it's fitted into pretty much every cheapo suitcase record player. But non the less it is good. I have actually used it into a magnetic input as an experiment on tube preamps (Ami) and with no mods or resistors and it sounds great. Very pleasing. My only hesitation these days is that I see you can buy 4 styli on Temu for about 2 dollars, so that tells me something about the diamonds on the new ones.
Nigel, uk
On 2 Jun 2024 at 12:27, Tony Miklos via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
It is ceramic. I believe so anyway. I had bypassed a cobra oscillator and with a .05mfd cap tapped into the amp. It has plenty of volume.
I hate to admit what the cartridge it is, but it's for a Crossley record player and I don't even have a part number for it. I doesn't really sound bad at all and the customer was happy with it. Sadly it's already gone but I'm still interested in your bass boosting technique. I was going to mess with the resistors on the bass control but got detoured and didn't get around to it.
On 5/31/2024 9:12 AM, Nigel Pugh wrote:
Hi Tony, Is this for a magnetic cartridge or ceramic ? Is it lacking in bass because it is a lower output cartridge than original, and you have to turn up the volume to get a decent sound, and the potentiometer has moved out of the loudness contour, so the sound is a bit thin? Even naff repro styli in the genuine cartridges can produce poor bass. Anyhow if this is a case then I do have a solution, i.e improving the bass by boosting the output volume of the cartridge to the amp/preamp. If so, let me know and I'll type in the reply because I did this 2 years ago and found a great solution.
What is the jukebox and cartridge ? I'm assuming all is wired correctly and if it's a Rowe that the cartridge wires are out of phase.
If you want a quick fix and it's a tube amp, pull the avc tube đ.
Nigel uk
On 31 May 2024 at 13:27, Tony Miklos via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
Is there any way to get more bass out of an amp when using a cartridge that is lacking in bass?
Tony
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Hi all,
My 5U4G (not B) tube packed in completely. It's about 4 years old. No heater light, nothing.
This is on a Rowe Tropicana.
I had a couple of spares. One has some tape around it saying low output. The other was unknown. After trying both of them, the sound was what I can only describe as woolly, like when the stylus has a big gob of fluff on the end.
So I ordered a brand new JJ 5U4GB. It's as clear as day and louder than previously.
I assume the spare I had with low output on, had a poor DC voltage. And probably the other one too.
I'm assuming that the low output had an impact on the performance of the power amp as a whole, and the result was a woolly sound a bit like a worn out stylus. I've googled about, as I'm curious, but not a lot of accurate info, and mostly guitar amp related.
Is this a common phonomenon when a rectifier tube has low output ? I'm just curious..
I also saw solid state replacements but then read that the voltage drop is much less, so amp mods would be needed, and the warm up of tubes would mean the output DC would be initially high, and not suitable for some amps.
Thoughts around the fuzzy sound with the spare ones please.
Nigel, uk
On Tuesday, June 11, 2024 at 11:32:53 AM PDT, Nigel Pugh via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
I'm assuming that the low output had an impact on the performance of the power amp as a whole, > and the result was a woolly sound a bit like a worn out stylus. I've googled about, as I'm curious, > but not a lot of accurate info, and mostly guitar amp related.  Is this a common phonomenon when a rectifier tube has low output ? I'm just curious..
Low output or gassy, a bad 5U4 will definitely make the amp sound more or less awful.
I also saw solid state replacements but then read that the voltage drop is much less, so amp > mods would be needed, and the warm up of tubes would mean the output DC would be initially > high, and not suitable for some amps.
What would be the reason for using a kludgey solid state replacement? Almost every electronicdevice with tubes uses a 5U4 rectifier. They will continue to be available maybe forever.
To add to this, Don Leslieâs organ loudspeakers with a pair of 6550s and a 5U4G were updated too 8 silicon diodes and a dropping resistor to prevent popping of the diodes from the near dead short of the filter capacitors upon initial power up.
The previous line of Leslie amplifiers utilized either 4 6V6s and 2 5Y3s or 4 6L6s and 2 5U4Gs.
The additional older design was using a 5V3, 2 6550s and 2 6973s.
Granted these were instrument amplifiers and not hi-fi quality but they operated for decades trouble free.
Don Resor
Sent from someone's iPhone
On Jun 11, 2024, at 12:08 PM, David Breneman via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
I also saw solid state replacements but then read that the voltage drop is much less, so amp > mods would be needed, and the warm up of tubes would mean the output DC would be initially > high, and not suitable for some amps.
What would be the reason for using a kludgey solid state replacement? Almost every electronicdevice with tubes uses a 5U4 rectifier. They will continue to be available maybe forever. _______________________________________________ Jukebox-list mailing list -- jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com To unsubscribe send an email to jukebox-list-leave@lists.netlojix.com %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s Searchable Archives: http://jukebox.markmail.org/
On 6/11/24 17:42, Don R via Jukebox-list wrote:
To add to this, Don Leslieâs organ loudspeakers with a pair of 6550s and a 5U4G were updated too 8 silicon diodes and a dropping resistor to prevent popping of the diodes from the near dead short of the filter capacitors upon initial power up.
A choke-input power supply filter is much more friendly to solid-state rectifiers. NTC thermistor is an alternate choice to the resistors that greatly reduces inrush but doesn't generate as much heat or waste as much power during operation.
Of course both of these are more expensive than the alternatives.
Granted these were instrument amplifiers and not hi-fi quality but they operated for decades trouble free.
Number of on-off cycles as opposed to total time in operation would correlate better with failure rate IMHO.
The vacuum tube Leslie amplifiers still had their multiple stage power supply with a choke between the first and second filter capacitor stages.
A schematic for the both versions of the Leslie 22H amplifier here. The 5U4GB rectifier and its solid state silicon diode counterpart design:
http://www.captain-foldback.com/Leslie_sub/Leslie_schematics/22H.GIF
Don Resor
-----Original Message----- From: Jay Hennigan via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
A choke-input power supply filter is much more friendly to solid-state rectifiers. NTC thermistor is an alternate choice to the resistors that greatly reduces inrush but doesn't generate as much heat or waste as much power during operation.
Of course both of these are more expensive than the alternatives.
Granted these were instrument amplifiers and not hi-fi quality but they operated for decades trouble free.
Number of on-off cycles as opposed to total time in operation would correlate better with failure rate IMHO.
-- Jay Hennigan - jay@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
_______________________________________________ Jukebox-list mailing list -- jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com To unsubscribe send an email to jukebox-list-leave@lists.netlojix.com %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s Searchable Archives: http://jukebox.markmail.org/
I was only curious about the solid state rectifier alternative, as the tube amps in the Rock Ola tempos use solid state rectification so it must have been an alternative design choice at the time.
My main query/thoughts was the change in sound clarity, and intrigued why the previous 5U4G tube stopped working completely. Worked Saturday, dead Sunday. No degradation, just stopped.
Nigel, uk
On 11 Jun 2024 at 20:08, David Breneman via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
On Tuesday, June 11, 2024 at 11:32:53 AM PDT, Nigel Pugh via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
I'm assuming that the low output had an impact on the performance of the power amp as a whole, > and the result was a woolly sound a bit like a worn out stylus. I've googled about, as I'm curious, > but not a lot of accurate info, and mostly guitar amp related. Is this a common phonomenon when a rectifier tube has low output ? I'm just curious..
Low output or gassy, a bad 5U4 will definitely make the amp sound more or less awful.
I also saw solid state replacements but then read that the voltage drop is much less, so amp > mods would be needed, and the warm up of tubes would mean the output DC would be initially > high, and not suitable for some amps.
What would be the reason for using a kludgey solid state replacement? Almost every electronicdevice with tubes uses a 5U4 rectifier. They will continue to be available maybe forever. _______________________________________________ Jukebox-list mailing list -- jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com To unsubscribe send an email to jukebox-list-leave@lists.netlojix.com %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s Searchable Archives: http://jukebox.markmail.org/
I suppose it's possible the rectifier vacuum tube had a slow vacuum leak, and the filament burned up, or maybe it was long beyond it's usable life and the filament gave up on its own?
Did you confirm with a multimeter that the filament of the 5U4 which you removed was open?
Don Resor
-----Original Message----- From: Nigel Pugh via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2024 10:16 PM To: David Breneman via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com; Tony Miklos tonysjukeboxrepair@gmail.com Cc: David Breneman david_breneman@yahoo.com; Nigel Pugh pughn@npsyssoft.force9.co.uk Subject: [Jukebox-list] Re: 5U4GB and sound
I was only curious about the solid state rectifier alternative, as the tube amps in the Rock Ola tempos use solid state rectification so it must have been an alternative design choice at the time.
My main query/thoughts was the change in sound clarity, and intrigued why the previous 5U4G tube stopped working completely. Worked Saturday, dead Sunday. No degradation, just stopped.
Nigel, uk
On 11 Jun 2024 at 20:08, David Breneman via Jukebox-list
jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
On Tuesday, June 11, 2024 at 11:32:53 AM PDT, Nigel Pugh via Jukebox-list
jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
I'm assuming that the low output had an impact on the performance of
the power amp as a whole, > and the result was a woolly sound a bit like a worn out stylus. I've googled about, as I'm curious, > but not a lot of accurate info, and mostly guitar amp related.
Is this a common phonomenon when a rectifier tube has low output ? I'm
just curious..
Low output or gassy, a bad 5U4 will definitely make the amp sound more or
less awful.
I also saw solid state replacements but then read that the voltage drop
is much less, so amp > mods would be needed, and the warm up of tubes would mean the output DC would be initially > high, and not suitable for some amps.
What would be the reason for using a kludgey solid state replacement?
Almost every electronicdevice with tubes uses a 5U4 rectifier. They will continue to be available maybe forever.
Jukebox-list mailing list -- jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com To unsubscribe send an email to jukebox-list-leave@lists.netlojix.com %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s Searchable Archives: http://jukebox.markmail.org/
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Hi Don,
No I haven't. I will do when I get the opportunity. It was fitted brand new 4 years ago.
When it first stopped working, I slowly pulled it out and it started working again. I thought it was a bad connection so I tensioned up the base sockets a little on the amp. Made no difference and the 2 old tubes still worked ok.
Them after a few days of adjusting it's position on the base, it stopped completely. Heater does not glow either.
Nigel
On 12 Jun 2024 at 11:55, D. Resor via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
I suppose it's possible the rectifier vacuum tube had a slow vacuum leak, and the filament burned up, or maybe it was long beyond it's usable life and the filament gave up on its own?
Did you confirm with a multimeter that the filament of the 5U4 which you removed was open?
Don Resor
-----Original Message----- From: Nigel Pugh via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2024 10:16 PM To: David Breneman via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com; Tony Miklos tonysjukeboxrepair@gmail.com Cc: David Breneman david_breneman@yahoo.com; Nigel Pugh pughn@npsyssoft.force9.co.uk Subject: [Jukebox-list] Re: 5U4GB and sound
I was only curious about the solid state rectifier alternative, as the tube amps in the Rock Ola tempos use solid state rectification so it must have been an alternative design choice at the time.
My main query/thoughts was the change in sound clarity, and intrigued why the previous 5U4G tube stopped working completely. Worked Saturday, dead Sunday. No degradation, just stopped.
Nigel, uk
On 11 Jun 2024 at 20:08, David Breneman via Jukebox-list
jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
On Tuesday, June 11, 2024 at 11:32:53 AM PDT, Nigel Pugh via Jukebox-list
jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
I'm assuming that the low output had an impact on the performance of
the power amp as a whole, > and the result was a woolly sound a bit like a worn out stylus. I've googled about, as I'm curious, > but not a lot of accurate info, and mostly guitar amp related.
Is this a common phonomenon when a rectifier tube has low output ? I'm
just curious..
Low output or gassy, a bad 5U4 will definitely make the amp sound more or
less awful.
I also saw solid state replacements but then read that the voltage drop
is much less, so amp > mods would be needed, and the warm up of tubes would mean the output DC would be initially > high, and not suitable for some amps.
What would be the reason for using a kludgey solid state replacement?
Almost every electronicdevice with tubes uses a 5U4 rectifier. They will continue to be available maybe forever.
Jukebox-list mailing list -- jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com To unsubscribe send an email to jukebox-list-leave@lists.netlojix.com %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s Searchable Archives: http://jukebox.markmail.org/
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On Wednesday, June 12, 2024 at 05:53:15 AM PDT, Nigel Pugh via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
When it first stopped working, I slowly pulled it out and it started > working again. I thought it was a bad connection so I tensioned > up the base sockets a little on the amp. Made no difference and > the 2 old tubes still worked ok.
Them after a few days of adjusting it's position on the base, > it stopped completely. Heater does not glow either.
If the tubes you swapped it out with work fine, I'd bet it's the filament. Moving the tube in the socket might have jiggled it enough to momentarily make contact.
This is new to me and I would love to hear the theory behind how a rectifier tube could affect the sound quality. Iâm not doubting it I just donât know enough to understand how this happens. As I far as I know the 5U4 creates a voltage needed in the amplifier, this tube has no gain qualities and if itâs good the voltage is there, if itâs defective there would be no voltage and the amplifier wouldnât work. I find this interesting as I never considered it could affect the sound. Iâd be interested in hearing an explanation from someone who knows more about this than me. Thanks, Mauro
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 12, 2024, at 11:43âŻAM, David Breneman via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
ï»ż
On Wednesday, June 12, 2024 at 05:53:15 AM PDT, Nigel Pugh via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
When it first stopped working, I slowly pulled it out and it started > working again. I thought it was a bad connection so I tensioned > up the base sockets a little on the amp. Made no difference and > the 2 old tubes still worked ok.
Them after a few days of adjusting it's position on the base, > it stopped completely. Heater does not glow either.
If the tubes you swapped it out with work fine, I'd bet it's the filament. Moving the tube in the socket might have jiggled it enough to momentarily make contact.
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This is an interesting discussion and I'd like to add my two cents worth. The Western Electric 274B and 422A rectifier tubes as replacement for the 5U4 are highly coveted by audiophiles and guitarists for their sonic qualities and demand good money. Those with tuned ears can definitely tell the difference in sound quality produced by those tubes over the readily available and less expensive 5u4.  My seventy-plus-year-old ears could probably not discern the difference anymore. Ah, such is youth. Here's and interesting discussion on 5U4G replacements:  https://www.audionirvana.org/forum/the-audio-vault/accessories/vacuum-tubes/... Dean
On Wednesday, June 12, 2024 at 10:04:51 AM PDT, M De Simone via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
This is new to me and I would love to hear the theory behind how a rectifier tube could affect the sound quality. Iâm not doubting it I just donât know enough to understand how this happens. As I far as I know the 5U4 creates a voltage needed in the amplifier, this tube has no gain qualities and if itâs good the voltage is there, if itâs defective there would be no voltage and the amplifier wouldnât work. I find this interesting as I never considered it could affect the sound. Iâd be interested in hearing an explanation from someone who knows more about this than me. Thanks, Mauro
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On Jun 12, 2024, at 11:43âŻAM, David Breneman via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
ï»ż
On Wednesday, June 12, 2024 at 05:53:15 AM PDT, Nigel Pugh via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
When it first stopped working, I slowly pulled it out and it started > working again. I thought it was a bad connection so I tensioned > up the base sockets a little on the amp. Made no difference and > the 2 old tubes still worked ok.
Them after a few days of adjusting it's position on the base, > it stopped completely. Heater does not glow either.
If the tubes you swapped it out with work fine, I'd bet it's the filament. Moving the tube in the socket might have jiggled it enough to momentarily make contact.
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On Wednesday, June 12, 2024 at 10:05:07 AM PDT, M De Simone via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
This is new to me and I would love to hear the theory behind > how a rectifier tube could affect the sound quality. Iâm not doubting it I just donât know enough to understand how this happens. As I far as I know the 5U4 creates a voltage needed in the amplifier, > this tube has no gain qualities and if itâs good the voltage is there, if itâs> defective there would be no voltage and the amplifier wouldnât work. I find this interesting as I never considered it could affect the sound. Iâd be interested in hearing an explanation from someone who knows > more about this than me.
I think you've answered your own question. Among the audiophool community,there are people who swear that soaking a power cord in liquid nitrogen willre-arrange the "grain" of the copper and yield better sound. Well, god bless 'em.If a rectifier can produce clean DC current, it's good. A failing rectifier can let 60 or 50 Hz seep into the signal chain, but if the DC is good, that's all you canask of it.
That is what I want to know, purely for curiosity, how it can affect the sound, but in my case I can tell you it does.
Today I have experimented with the new tube versus the 2 old ones (included the one labelled low voltage). Now if the voltage has no impact, why would the amp guy who restored my amp swap it out ?
The sound with the old ones is slightly fuzzy, and increased sibilance. Just a bit out of focus, but enough to be annoying.
Nigel, uk
On 12 Jun 2024 at 19:45, David Breneman via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
On Wednesday, June 12, 2024 at 10:05:07 AM PDT, M De Simone via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
This is new to me and I would love to hear the theory behind > how a rectifier tube could affect the sound quality. Iâm not doubting it I just donât know enough to understand how this happens. As I far as I know the 5U4 creates a voltage needed in the amplifier, > this tube has no gain qualities and if itâs good the voltage is there, if itâs> defective there would be no voltage and the amplifier wouldnât work. I find this interesting as I never considered it could affect the sound. Iâd be interested in hearing an explanation from someone who knows > more about this than me.
I think you've answered your own question. Among the audiophool community,there are people who swear that soaking a power cord in liquid nitrogen willre-arrange the "grain" of the copper and yield better sound. Well, god bless 'em.If a rectifier can produce clean DC current, it's good. A failing rectifier can let 60 or 50 Hz seep into the signal chain, but if the DC is good, that's all you canask of it.
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On 6/12/24 10:04, M De Simone via Jukebox-list wrote:
This is new to me and I would love to hear the theory behind how a rectifier tube could affect the sound quality.
It will only affect sound quality if it has low emission resulting in low B+ voltage. Some audiophiles with more money than sense will claim to hear an audible difference in rectifier tube brands, but they also claim to hear a difference in power cords, spending over four figures on them.
Iâm not doubting it I just donât know enough to understand how this happens. As I far as I know the 5U4 creates a voltage needed in the amplifier, this tube has no gain qualities and if itâs good the voltage is there, if itâs defective there would be no voltage and the amplifier wouldnât work.
Mostly correct, but low B+ voltage will produce weak distorted sound.
A weak distorted sound is exactly how I would describe it.
On 14 Jun 2024 at 17:42, Jay Hennigan via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
On 6/12/24 10:04, M De Simone via Jukebox-list wrote:
This is new to me and I would love to hear the theory behind how a rectifier tube could affect the sound quality.
It will only affect sound quality if it has low emission resulting in low B+ voltage. Some audiophiles with more money than sense will claim to hear an audible difference in rectifier tube brands, but they also claim to hear a difference in power cords, spending over four figures on them.
Iâm not doubting it I just donât know enough to understand how this happens. As I far as I know the 5U4 creates a voltage needed in the amplifier, this tube has no gain qualities and if itâs good the voltage is there, if itâs defective there would be no voltage and the amplifier wouldnât work.
Mostly correct, but low B+ voltage will produce weak distorted sound.
-- Jay Hennigan - jay@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
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I think you are probably right. That does make sense. It will become an ornament now đ
Regards
Nigel, uk
On 12 Jun 2024 at 16:42, David Breneman david_breneman@yahoo.com wrote:
On Wednesday, June 12, 2024 at 05:53:15 AM PDT, Nigel Pugh via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
When it first stopped working, I slowly pulled it out and it started working again. I thought it was a bad connection so I tensioned
up the base sockets a little on the amp. Made no difference and
the 2 old tubes still worked ok.
Them after a few days of adjusting it's position on the base, it stopped completely. Heater does not glow either.
If the tubes you swapped it out with work fine, I'd bet it's the
filament. Moving the tube in the socket might have jiggled it
enough to momentarily make contact.
The same people using special rectifier tubes because they sound better, are some of the same folks that swear by having a SHIELDED power cord.
To the original question re: sound quality, sure if the tube is weak, it may not be supplying enough current to the filter caps so your voltages are all low.
I guess another way is if the 5U4 is shorting and sparking internally, yep, it won't sound good at all. A bit crackly!
Those 2 scenarios make sense but if one tube tests at 100% and another tests at 75% and no shorts, they shouldnât both produce the same voltage? I canât see where there would be a difference. If the tube tested bad and wasnât rectifying properly than sure the voltage would be low or it would be contaminated. Are we discussing a good rectifier tube vs a bad one or something else? A bad tube will obviously affect the whole amplifier but it sounded a bit like a comparison of different âgoodâ tubes.
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On Jun 12, 2024, at 4:26âŻPM, Tony Miklos via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
ï»żThe same people using special rectifier tubes because they sound better, are some of the same folks that swear by having a SHIELDED power cord.
To the original question re: sound quality, sure if the tube is weak, it may not be supplying enough current to the filter caps so your voltages are all low.
I guess another way is if the 5U4 is shorting and sparking internally, yep, it won't sound good at all. A bit crackly! _______________________________________________ Jukebox-list mailing list -- jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com To unsubscribe send an email to jukebox-list-leave@lists.netlojix.com %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s Searchable Archives: http://jukebox.markmail.org/
If the DC voltages are good, then it should sound as good as a new one.
On 6/12/2024 4:41 PM, M De Simone via Jukebox-list wrote:
Those 2 scenarios make sense but if one tube tests at 100% and another tests at 75% and no shorts, they shouldnât both produce the same voltage? I canât see where there would be a difference. If the tube tested bad and wasnât rectifying properly than sure the voltage would be low or it would be contaminated. Are we discussing a good rectifier tube vs a bad one or something else? A bad tube will obviously affect the whole amplifier but it sounded a bit like a comparison of different âgoodâ tubes.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 12, 2024, at 4:26âŻPM, Tony Miklos via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
ï»żThe same people using special rectifier tubes because they sound better, are some of the same folks that swear by having a SHIELDED power cord.
To the original question re: sound quality, sure if the tube is weak, it may not be supplying enough current to the filter caps so your voltages are all low.
I guess another way is if the 5U4 is shorting and sparking internally, yep, it won't sound good at all. A bit crackly! _______________________________________________ Jukebox-list mailing list -- jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com To unsubscribe send an email to jukebox-list-leave@lists.netlojix.com %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s Searchable Archives: http://jukebox.markmail.org/
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My original post was this:-
A brand new out of the box tube ordered last week (JJ) - sounds as it should.
A 4 year old tube - zero sound, doesn't light up.
An original RCA tube with a sticker on saying low output. Sound present but slightly muffled - like there's a lot of fluff on the stylus.
An original Brimar tube, untested. Same result as the RCA above.
And my original question was, is the slight distortion due to low output on the original old tubes ? Surely at some point the lower DC output must have an effect on the rest of the amp, and is this a symptom of that effect ?
I suppose the answer is to test and verify what exactly the low output is on the 2 old tubes. But regardless, there is a difference in sound. I'm not trying to be like some audio fanatic who spends 1000s on fancy cables I've had this machine since 1985. I know what it sounds like and when things are different. And it's easily replicable by swapping out that tube
The old tubes are useable and great as spares, but not such a good sound to keep in there when I know there is a better sound to be had.
Nigel
On 12 Jun 2024 at 21:42, M De Simone via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
Those 2 scenarios make sense but if one tube tests at 100% and another tests at 75% and no shorts, they shouldnât both produce the same voltage? I canât see where there would be a difference. If the tube tested bad and wasnât rectifying properly than sure the voltage would be low or it would be contaminated. Are we discussing a good rectifier tube vs a bad one or something else? A bad tube will obviously affect the whole amplifier but it sounded a bit like a comparison of different âgoodâ tubes.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 12, 2024, at 4:26âŻPM, Tony Miklos via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
ï»żThe same people using special rectifier tubes because they sound better, are some of the same folks that swear by having a SHIELDED power cord.
To the original question re: sound quality, sure if the tube is weak, it may not be supplying enough current to the filter caps so your voltages are all low.
I guess another way is if the 5U4 is shorting and sparking internally, yep, it won't sound good at all. A bit crackly! _______________________________________________ Jukebox-list mailing list -- jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com To unsubscribe send an email to jukebox-list-leave@lists.netlojix.com %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s Searchable Archives: http://jukebox.markmail.org/
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On 6/12/24 13:41, M De Simone via Jukebox-list wrote:
Those 2 scenarios make sense but if one tube tests at 100% and another tests at 75% and no shorts, they shouldnât both produce the same voltage? I canât see where there would be a difference.
Music is a dynamic load. Heavy bass passages pull more current. A weak tube will cause plate voltage to sag with high-current loads affecting the sound.
Jay, Thank you for the simple elegant explanation! Makes sense and now I understand it and learned something new. Thanks, Mauro
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 14, 2024, at 12:56âŻPM, Jay Hennigan via Jukebox-list jukebox-list@lists.netlojix.com wrote:
ï»żOn 6/12/24 13:41, M De Simone via Jukebox-list wrote:
Those 2 scenarios make sense but if one tube tests at 100% and another tests at 75% and no shorts, they shouldnât both produce the same voltage? I canât see where there would be a difference.
Music is a dynamic load. Heavy bass passages pull more current. A weak tube will cause plate voltage to sag with high-current loads affecting the sound.
-- Jay Hennigan - jay@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
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